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John Thavis has been in St. Peter’s Square for the election of the last four popes, from John Paul I through Francis.  (CNS photo/Paul Haring)

‘Vaticanista’ tells Catholic Review how conclaves have changed in 50 years


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Catholic Review Filed Under: 2025 Conclave, Feature, Local News, News

John Thavis has been in St. Peter’s Square for the election of the last four popes, from John Paul I through Francis. 

He was a journalist working for an English-language newspaper in Rome, but not covering the Vatican, in 1978 when Pope St. Paul VI died, and Cardinal Albino Luciani was elected and took the name Pope John Paul I.

Likewise when “the September Pope” died and the Polish Cardinal Karol Wojtyla – Pope St. John Paul II – was elected.

John Thavis shakes hands with Pope Benedict XVI while Thavis was a reporter in Rome. (Courtesy John Thavis). 

Thavis was not yet a “Vaticanista,” an expert on all things related to the Holy See, but for both conclaves in 1978, when he heard “white smoke,” he hopped on his bike and headed to the square and got right under the central balcony to watch it all up close – “no problem.” 

“Nowadays, you won’t get close. I mean, the square is packed at all times during the conclave. Security, of course, is much tighter. But there’s so many more people; it’s become a global news event in the way that even in 1978, it was not.”

Back then, the crowd was much more local, almost all Romans. They cheered when they heard the name “Albino,” as Papa Luciani was from Venice. But the Romans were confused when they heard the name “Karol Wojtyla” a month later, thinking perhaps the name was African.

“And of course, John Paul II came out and spoke some Italian and made them feel good and everybody was happy,” Thavis recalled April 22, the day after the death of Pope Francis.

Thavis started as a reporter for Catholic News Service in Rome in 1982, becoming bureau chief in 1996.

The first conclave he covered as a journalist was in 2005, after the death of Pope John Paul II. It was a challenge for all the reporters, since almost none of them had covered the last conclave 26 years earlier. They learned the rules of the conclave and read the documentation provided by the Vatican press office. 

Pope John Paul II had been very good with journalists, even inviting some of them, Thavis included, to write reflections for the Good Friday Stations of the Cross one year. After the pope’s death, Thavis was one of a very small group invited to pay his respects during a brief liturgy in the papal apartment where the pontiff’s body was laid out in red vestments.

“His head was resting on three gold pillows, and he looked very peaceful. But, you know, he had suffered. He held a rosary in his hand and then in his left arm, he held that silver crosier that he had carried with him all throughout his pontificate, and so I noted all the details,” he said.

Since his presence there essentially made him a pool reporter, he shared the details with others, including a reporter for the New York Times who called by phone. After Thavis recounted what he had seen, the reporter rushed off to write his story.

John Thavis is pictured traveling on the papal plane with Pope Benedict XVI. (Courtesy John Thavis) 

“He wrote that the pope held in the crook of his arm a silver staff called a ‘crow’s ear,’ and it found its way into print in the New York Times,” Thavis said. 

Such misunderstandings highlight the importance of journalists who cover the Catholic Church full time, and therefore know the correct terminology. “To their credit, (the Times) issued a correction later, but I always felt, maybe I should have spelled it out.”

By that time, Thavis knew enough about the Vatican and the “papabile” – leading candidates for the papacy – to pre-write stories on two of the top contenders. 

And while the election of John Paul II was an unknown, Thavis had a story about Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger ready to go with a few minor changes and the push of a button to send it when he came to the balcony as Pope Benedict XVI. 

He also had one ready for Cardinal Dionigi Tettamanzi, archbishop of Milan. “Even as I wrote that, I thought no, it’s not going to happen. But I’ll be prepared just in case. I thought they might turn back to an Italian after 26 years of the so-called ‘foreign’ pope, but they didn’t.”

By 2013, Thavis had retired and had come to Rome to promote his new book, “The Vatican Diaries,” stories about the inner workings of the Vatican. The book became an instant New York Times best-seller, in part because of its providential release at a time of papal transition. When Pope Benedict announced his resignation, Thavis worked as a commentator and expert for ABC News during the conclave that followed.

The anchors have script outlines, but their experts need to be ready for anything. Live TV requires filling a lot of time, and during one lull, Diane Sawyer asked him specifically about the number of buttons on the cardinals’ cassocks. Fortunately, he was able to quickly relate that the garments have 33 buttons, one to signify each year of Christ’s life on earth.

By that time, the Vatican officials in charge of conclaves had worked out a much more reliable system to turn the smoke black or white. When the white smoke announcing a successful election came, Thavis was pleased to hear a name unfamiliar to many but familiar to him – Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio.

“I thought, ‘OK, this is good.’ Two days earlier I had blogged that he might be the one to watch in this conclave, so I knew who he was. I knew details about his life, and I was able to talk about him.”

He thinks the movie “Conclave,” which came out in 2024, got some basic things right in terms of the election and the seriousness with which some characters took their decisions. And, since “after all, it’s a movie, they exaggerated the politicking that goes on inside the conclave. … I don’t think cardinals are inside making deals like they are in the movies.” 

In fact, Thavis said, “Trading votes or trading a future office in exchange for support for a candidate is especially prohibited by the Vatican’s rules under pain of excommunication.”

Having been retired for 12 years, he doesn’t expect to go to Rome for the conclave in 2025, as it’s time for younger people to take on that role. “If I don’t go, I know I’ll miss it and I probably won’t enjoy watching it on TV as much as in person,” he said.

Email Christopher Gunty at editor@CatholicReview.org

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